As debated here before, the problem tends to be Wayland itself, not Steam...

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GNU Debian ☭:

As debated here before, the problem tends to be Wayland itself, not Steam...

> Yeah this is a common argument aswell, not only on Steam. It isn't black and white blame Wayland, or blame Valve, rather, you have to take into account the traditional X11 model is also 40 years old and some of those quirks also happen to bubble up in XWayland applications.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GNU Debian ☭:

As debated here before, the problem tends to be Wayland itself, not Steam...

> Yeah this is a common argument aswell, not only on Steam. It isn't black and white blame Wayland, or blame Valve, rather, you have to take into account the traditional X11 model is also 40 years old and some of those quirks also happen to bubble up in XWayland applications.

Internet and fiber channel are more than 40 years old too, and we still using it... It is NOT about age; it is about quality!

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GNU Debian ☭:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

> Yeah this is a common argument aswell, not only on Steam. It isn't black and white blame Wayland, or blame Valve, rather, you have to take into account the traditional X11 model is also 40 years old and some of those quirks also happen to bubble up in XWayland applications.

Internet and fiber channel are more than 40 years old too, and we still using it... It is NOT about age; it is about quality!

You are comparing apples to oranges. Yes the internet and fiber have been in use for a long time, they have proven to be ubiquitous, X's principles have not.

I will not continue to parrot, you can google it yourself why X11 is now being deprecated.

While I fully understand the reason WHY it would be beneficial to do so. I think it's a bit early yet. There is still a sizable amount of people who still uses x11 for a variety of reasons. For example, I have a friend who pretty much depends on x11 for the time being because the accessibility tools he uses have no real equivalents done that works correctly on Wayland.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GNU Debian ☭:

Internet and fiber channel are more than 40 years old too, and we still using it... It is NOT about age; it is about quality!

You are comparing apples to oranges. Yes the internet and fiber have been in use for a long time, they have proven to be ubiquitous, X's principles have not.

I will not continue to parrot, you can google it yourself why X11 is now being deprecated.

TLDR: Some people have a hate boner for it.
Wayland is as old now as X was when it was declared too old and more worthy to restart from scratch.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Thermal Lance:

While I fully understand the reason WHY it would be beneficial to do so. I think it's a bit early yet. There is still a sizable amount of people who still uses x11 for a variety of reasons. For example, I have a friend who pretty much depends on x11 for the time being because the accessibility tools he uses have no real equivalents done that works correctly on Wayland.

and I'm tired of this being somehow advertised as a desirable feature when its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bug.
Who needs remote desktop, screen readers, global shortcuts, functional screenrecording, drag and drop, xkill, etc.
Wayland is just part of the typical modern technology lockdown agenda, taking away useful features in the name of fake security (just dont run spyware which doesnt exist on Linux anyways)

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Thermal Lance:

While I fully understand the reason WHY it would be beneficial to do so. I think it's a bit early yet. There is still a sizable amount of people who still uses x11 for a variety of reasons. For example, I have a friend who pretty much depends on x11 for the time being because the accessibility tools he uses have no real equivalents done that works correctly on Wayland.

and I'm tired of this being somehow advertised as a desirable feature when its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bug.
Who needs remote desktop, screen readers, global shortcuts, functional screenrecording, drag and drop, xkill, etc.
Wayland is just part of the typical modern technology lockdown agenda, taking away useful features in the name of fake security (just dont run spyware which doesnt exist on Linux anyways)

I don't think there is a necessary agenda to lock down all linux users from using screen-readers on Wayland, that is a dumb excuse for everyone involved.

I agree Wayland is not feature-parity with X11, sure. But to call necessary modern security measures such as preventing other applications from stealing all your keystrokes, etc. "fake security is stupid, and you obviously do not understand what you are talking about. Portals in Wayland (while not perfect yet) address this fundamental issue anyway, while retaining the users control of their computer.

Wayland is fundamentally different from X11 as a project due to Wayland's blanket use of protocols that can easily be updated, added to, and tweaked, rather than muddying around X's hairy codebase + extensions (if you ever enjoyed using more than one monitor, that is not possible in X alone), yuck.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

and I'm tired of this being somehow advertised as a desirable feature when its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bug.
Who needs remote desktop, screen readers, global shortcuts, functional screenrecording, drag and drop, xkill, etc.
Wayland is just part of the typical modern technology lockdown agenda, taking away useful features in the name of fake security (just dont run spyware which doesnt exist on Linux anyways)

I don't think there is a necessary agenda to lock down all linux users from using screen-readers on Wayland, that is a dumb excuse for everyone involved.

I agree Wayland is not feature-parity with X11, sure. But to call necessary modern security measures such as preventing other applications from stealing all your keystrokes, etc. "fake security is stupid, and you obviously do not understand what you are talking about. Portals in Wayland (while not perfect yet) address this fundamental issue anyway, while retaining the users control of their computer.

Wayland is fundamentally different from X11 as a project due to Wayland's blanket use of protocols that can easily be updated, added to, and tweaked, rather than muddying around X's hairy codebase + extensions (if you ever enjoyed using more than one monitor, that is not possible in X alone), yuck.

How many more years until basic features will actually work in the real world on Wayland? and when you ask developers, software devs say its impossible/too hard to do on Wayland compared to X and Wayland devs say lack of features is a feature not a bug.
No wonder Valve said ♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥ and made their own display server for SteamOS.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

I don't think there is a necessary agenda to lock down all linux users from using screen-readers on Wayland, that is a dumb excuse for everyone involved.

I agree Wayland is not feature-parity with X11, sure. But to call necessary modern security measures such as preventing other applications from stealing all your keystrokes, etc. "fake security is stupid, and you obviously do not understand what you are talking about. Portals in Wayland (while not perfect yet) address this fundamental issue anyway, while retaining the users control of their computer.

Wayland is fundamentally different from X11 as a project due to Wayland's blanket use of protocols that can easily be updated, added to, and tweaked, rather than muddying around X's hairy codebase + extensions (if you ever enjoyed using more than one monitor, that is not possible in X alone), yuck.

How many more years until basic features will actually work in the real world on Wayland? and when you ask developers, software devs say its impossible/too hard to do on Wayland compared to X and Wayland devs say lack of features is a feature not a bug.
No wonder Valve said ♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥ and made their own display server for SteamOS.

Gamescope implements Wayland protocols, it is a Wayland micro-compositor, please do your research.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

How many more years until basic features will actually work in the real world on Wayland? and when you ask developers, software devs say its impossible/too hard to do on Wayland compared to X and Wayland devs say lack of features is a feature not a bug.
No wonder Valve said ♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥ and made their own display server for SteamOS.

Gamescope implements Wayland protocols, do your research.

Well, at least it works properly for what it was designed for.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ^4sonny:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

and I'm tired of this being somehow advertised as a desirable feature when its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bug.
Who needs remote desktop, screen readers, global shortcuts, functional screenrecording, drag and drop, xkill, etc.
Wayland is just part of the typical modern technology lockdown agenda, taking away useful features in the name of fake security (just dont run spyware which doesnt exist on Linux anyways)

I don't think there is a necessary agenda to lock down all linux users from using screen-readers on Wayland, that is a dumb excuse for everyone involved.

I agree Wayland is not feature-parity with X11, sure. But to call necessary modern security measures such as preventing other applications from stealing all your keystrokes, etc. "fake security is stupid, and you obviously do not understand what you are talking about. Portals in Wayland (while not perfect yet) address this fundamental issue anyway, while retaining the users control of their computer.

Wayland is fundamentally different from X11 as a project due to Wayland's blanket use of protocols that can easily be updated, added to, and tweaked, rather than muddying around X's hairy codebase + extensions (if you ever enjoyed using more than one monitor, that is not possible in X alone), yuck.

What? You cant use more than 1 monitor on X11/Xorg? Where are you living in the past 30 years? You can use A LOT of monitors, plus the network, serial/parallel connections, etc etc etc... Hahahaha

You can output a billion of different Xs or the same X to everything (device, output) you can ever dream of!

About security... I'm the linux user; I decide what I wanna do (respecting the permissions I was gave by the admin); Wayland can't choose for me if Im allowed to use a screen reader, or a magnified lens, or share my desktop through SSH, VNC, or use Steam Play with a friend, or use a custom overlay for my game...

Linux is not Windows! Here the boss is the user!!! And the super user is God...

PS: good luck with Wayland trying to export the text on the app/browser to a braille-compatible display...

The "so mighty" security Wayland so desires will be the user using X11/Xorg instead or migrating/returning to Windows/MacOS...

Most of you never used "screen" or "ssh -X"; maybe nor even shared a screen AND inputs using VLC; most of you REALLY don't have a clue how limited/poor Wayland actually is...

You know you could watch a movie and ASCII art network transmit it, using x11 + ssh + libcaca??? Hahahaha IF this is not state of the art tech, I don't know what it is...

Until Wayland and Xwayland can handle/do everything X11/Xorg can with existing apps, and at least as well as X11/Xorg does, I don't see how it's an improvement. The way it's being pushed to be the default before it's done cooking reminds of how video games are being released in a crappy condition and the suckers that pre-ordered/day one'd it basically just paid to be used as live beta testers.

Maybe not the best comparison, as linux is free or supported by donations except for a few paid 'pro/premium' service models, but that's the feeling it gives me.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Yoth:

The main issue with Wayland (and why it often sucks so much) is that X11 does everything in a single connection, with direct access to all of it. Wayland on the other hand only focuses on display and everything else is pushed to the compositor, external libraries and so on. This means that parts of the ecosystem have to be implemented dozens of times and your experience and support may vary depending on your software stack. The same Wayland application may be a dream to use on KDE but a nightmare on Gnome while on X11 it all works the same.

When I began using linux, Unix -> linux had a moto:
"Be small and do it well!"
And also, every developer knew the K.I.S.S. philosophy...

Nowadays, most of these things are long gone!!! "It was developed in the 70's, 80's" means garbage to the new generation... Sadly!

I don't mind if I'm using a technology that is older than history itself, as long as it works as good AND simple as it can be!

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tyl0413:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Thermal Lance:

While I fully understand the reason WHY it would be beneficial to do so. I think it's a bit early yet. There is still a sizable amount of people who still uses x11 for a variety of reasons. For example, I have a friend who pretty much depends on x11 for the time being because the accessibility tools he uses have no real equivalents done that works correctly on Wayland.

and I'm tired of this being somehow advertised as a desirable feature when its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bug.
Who needs remote desktop, screen readers, global shortcuts, functional screenrecording, drag and drop, xkill, etc.
Wayland is just part of the typical modern technology lockdown agenda, taking away useful features in the name of fake security (just dont run spyware which doesnt exist on Linux anyways)

Wayland does what I need it to do... Unlike my friend, I personally gain absolutely nothing from using x11. Even more so since I tend to prefer KDE these days. So, I can't say I really care about the whole drama behind it.